KJV Only Debate Blog Interviews Dr. Maurice Robinson, pt. 2

This is the second installment of our three part interview with Dr. Maurice Robinson, co-editor of the The New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform (Southborough, MA: Chilton Book Publishing, 1991, 2005). Continuing from part 1….

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6. Getting back to the Majority Text, opponents of the Majority Text point out the relative lateness of Byzantine readings compared to older readings in the Alexandrian or other text types. How would you respond to the idea that older readings, all things considered, are necessarily better?

Were this really a true principle, then we should be preferring Western readings over Alexandrian (as even Westcott and Hort acknowledged), since the Western readings clearly have a documented earlier pedigree than the Alexandrian, whether from Old Latin MSS or patristic quotations. Obviously neither Westcott and Hort nor even most eclectically based modern critical texts follow that particular route (a few textual critics mostly in France in fact do advocate Western authenticity). In addition, it is generally recognized among all schools of thought that at least some later MSS in fact do preserve earlier texts. This principle usually is limited by critical text partisans to include only those later MSS that tend to agree with their favored earlier MSS, but the principle should apply equally; and if so, there is no reason why the later Byzantine MSS (or those of even the late 4th and early 5th centuries) should not similarly be considered to have preserved a much earlier form of text with (at least) second-century roots. This becomes a greater issue, given that many non-Byzantine partisans have allowed that virtually all significant readings were in existence during the second century — this in effect reflecting what Sturz and Colwell have claimed. Also — as Sturz has shown — numerous Byzantine readings that were dismissed by Westcott and Hort as “distinctively” Byzantine (maintaining W-H’s definition of such in light of material then available to them) do appear in early papyri that were unknown to W-H. Further, as Burgon and Miller had claimed (confirmed by more precise recent research), a large number of Byzantine readings exist among early fathers in a proportion that does approach 2:1 (cf. Hannah’s tabulation of quotations by Origen in 1 Corinthians). So a case can be made regarding the likely early character of the Byzantine Textform; the desired missing piece yet to be discovered (should such ever occur) is merely an early papyrus with a clearly Byzantine text.

7. On a somewhat related note, would you say a respect for the history of church usage, plays heavily into your decision to opt for a Byzantine priority?

Not that I would give great credence to the particular doctrinal views of the Greek Orthodox Church any more than I would those of the Roman Catholic Church — but I do recognize that it was primarily through each of these channels that the Greek and Latin Vulgate texts of the NT were preserved. Accepting that historical factor, I would suggest that a healthy respect for church-based preservation and transmission of the sacred texts should weigh heavily in relation to text-critical theories and praxis.

8a. Some of us have read a bit of the writings of men like Dean John Burgon, Frederick Scrivener and even Edward Freer Hills. Would you claim such men as forebears of the Majority Text position?

I would not consider anyone whose primary agenda was the defense of KJV exclusivity or primacy to be in any manner a forerunner of the Byzantine-priority or majority text position, but rather to reflect a more recent and less-than-scholarly development. This is the situation with Hills, who — regardless of all his former training and apparently favorable comments regarding the Byzantine or majority text — is never willing absolutely to reject any KJV reading derived from a minority of Greek manuscripts (or even no Greek manuscripts whatever!). Through scholastic sophistry similar to that applied by most other KJVOs, Hills ultimately defends every aspect of the KJV and its underlying text, regardless of where the factual data might point. Like most other KJVOs, Hills also ignores the methodological dichotomy whereby he on the one hand claims Byzantine superiority while on the other hand he denies such in favor of minority or unsupported readings — this demonstrates a KJVO mentality quite clearly. Burgon and Miller, on the other hand, freely critiqued certain translational and textual aspects of the KJV, even while urging its retention for Anglican Church use until such time as various textual and translational matters were more firmly decided (conservative textual criticism in the 19th century was very much undetermined and in flux). Scrivener was even more bold, openly departing much more from the KJV and its underlying text, but not always in the Byzantine direction. Scrivener basically allowed for the originality of various non-Byzantine minority readings taken from other texttypes; such was not the case with Burgon or Miller. Similarly, S. W. Whitney in the 19th century also defended the Byzantine reading in most cases (more so than Scrivener), but here and there even Whitney chose to abandon the Byzantine reading for one found in minority texttypes. In this light, the real forerunners of the current majority text or Byzantine-priority position remain Burgon and Miller and (in his earliest work) J. A. Scholz.

8b. If the Greek text you helped edit were available to these men, would you think they would support your efforts?

I think that for the most part Burgon and Miller would agree heartily, given the evidence from their own writings, especially Burgon’s comments as to places where the TR/KJV text was deficient or erroneous. Such appears not only in his major works, but also as shown in his Textual Commentary on Mt 1-14, where he anticipated both the H-F and R-P texts regarding places of variation away from the TR in more than 95% of the actual cases. Scholz similarly would likely fall into the same category. Scrivener and Whitney, on the other hand, would today continue to hold a differing opinion in some cases.

9. Could you speak to how modern scholarship in general, and evangelical scholarship particularly, has received the Majority Text? Is it helping to further productive debate?

For the most part modern text-critical scholarship remains content with the predominantly Alexandrian-based reasoned eclectic method and its resultant UBS or Nestle text (even though those texts are determined more on external than internal principles). Here and there, of course, eclectic-based journal articles and commentaries occasionally defend some Byzantine as well as other non-Alexandrian readings, but not to a degree that would significantly alter the Alexandrian character of the critical text favored overall. The scholars who have accepted the Byzantine-priority or majority text position remain few, and many of these do not primarily teach or practice in the text-critical arena. In contrast, far more laypeople seem to favor the Byzantine or majority text position than those in academia, although their support continually is clouded by the overly vocal KJVO partisans, who tend to drown out the various voices of reason on this issue.

The very fact that the Byzantine Textform has been published (electronically and in hard copy) helps to spur further inquiry and debate (see, for example, Dan Wallace regarding the likely originality of the Byzantine “shorter readings” as well as the acceptance of some previously rejected Byzantine readings by the INTF in Münster). Overall, however, the Byzantine-priority position remains unconvincing to most scholarly readers (through no fault of my own, I trust). Yet, had the H-F or R-P editions never been published, I wonder whether the greater credence now assigned to some Byzantine readings by eclectic critics really would have occurred.

This interview will conclude tomorrow with part 3.

20 thoughts on “KJV Only Debate Blog Interviews Dr. Maurice Robinson, pt. 2

    • Bob Hayton August 10, 2010 / 12:37 pm

      Dr. Robinson mentions that in the third part of the interview, actually.

    • Andrew Suttles August 10, 2010 / 4:50 pm

      Oops! Sorry about the spoiler, Bob. You may delete my comment if you like.

    • Bob Hayton August 10, 2010 / 4:51 pm

      No problem. It’s a teaser for people to stay tuned for what Dr. Robinson will say about that new resource!

  1. Chris Poe August 10, 2010 / 6:06 pm

    Bob,

    Thanks for doing this interview with Dr. Robinson.

    • Bob Hayton August 10, 2010 / 6:52 pm

      No problem, Chris. We should really thank Dr. Robinson for obliging us with the interview!

  2. James Snapp, Jr. August 10, 2010 / 10:06 pm

    Three Questions for Dr. Robinson:

    You have proposed in “The Case for Byzantine Priority” (in point #4 in the discussion of external evidence) that the various Byzantine subtypes essentially boil down to their several archetypes. This seems to implicitly preclude the concept of “normal” transmission: such a model, instead of showing evenly distributed growth emanating from the autographs in all directions, shows initial growth, followed by new centers of growth. It seems to me that you advocate an approach in which if a reading appears in the majority of those new centers of growth, it should be considered original — and there is sufficient unity in the subtypes of the Byzantine Text to produce a cohesive text in an essentially mathematical way, not by counting MSS but by counting MS-groups where they can be isolated.

    My question is, why not include the versional evidence in the equation? It seems to me that if we isolate groups, and the Alexandrian MSS = group 1, and the Western MSS = group 2, and subtypes of the Byzantine MSS are groups 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, the Byzantine Text always wins the election; a transmission-history is easier to picture with the consensus-reading of independent (or somewhat independent — okay, at least /distinct/) groups as the original text. But if we put the Old Latin, the Old Syriac, the Vulgate, the Sahidic, the Armenian, the Gothic, and the Peshitta into the equation, then the election is much closer, and perhaps in some cases the balance would even be tipped away from the reading of the Byzantine subtypes, especially at points where Byz is divided.

    So, Question #1 is, why not add the early versions into the equation, so that we compare Witness-groups, instead of just MS-groups? And Question #2 is, would you be willing, at points where the Byzantine reading appears to be a non-majority reading among early Witness-groups (as opposed to exclusively Greek MS-groups), to seek the original text at those points by comparing the variants and evaluating them via text-critical canons (which is more difficult, which looks like it elicited the others, etc.)?

    Question #3: How many readings in NA-27 do you think are not representative of the original text?

    Yours in Christ,

    James Snapp, Jr.

    • Bob Hayton August 11, 2010 / 12:10 pm

      James,

      Good questions here. I have forwarded them on to Dr. Robinson.

      ~Bob

  3. Bill Brown August 10, 2010 / 11:26 pm

    I sincerely appreciate this interview with Dr. Robinson. His graciousness and kindness even when discussing such contentious (potentially anyway) issues as the original text of the NT are inspiring and influential.

    I also appreciate his distancing from the anachronistic and predetermined text-critical viewpoint of Edward Hills. Although I was aware of it before, I sincerely appreciate Robinson coming out and saying what everybody else has known for years – Hills’s theory expires once one tries to apply his original axioms to the actual manuscript data. If Hills had been consistent then he would have been at the forefront of the advancement of the MT school a generation before Dr. Robinson was. The desire for certainty – in Hills’s case – trumped the desire for consistency and accuracy.

  4. Don Johnson August 11, 2010 / 1:40 am

    Hi Bob, and all here…

    Congratulations on an excellent interview. I really appreciate it. I hadn’t heard of Dr. Robinson before this (I am not living, eating, and breathing this debate), but I really appreciate his contribution. He is clearly a serious scholar and has a point to make. He probably should be more listened to by the wider world of textual criticism than he is.

    Maranatha!
    Don Johnson
    Jer 33.3

    • Bob Hayton August 11, 2010 / 8:00 am

      Thanks Don. I agree, Dr. Robinson’s views deserve wider attention.

  5. Mark Mincy August 11, 2010 / 9:18 am

    Bob,

    Just chiming in to thank you and Dr. Robinson (who I had not heard of before this interview). What a wonderful service you are providing to pastors and the church in general. This issues demands our attention but it can be so overwhelming to tackle. You guys are providing one of the most balanced and grace-filled treatments of the topic that I have come across. Thank you!

    • Bob Hayton August 11, 2010 / 10:09 am

      Thanks for the kind words Bro. Mincy. Our thanks extend too, to Dr. Robinson for obliging us with the interview.

  6. Bob Hayton August 11, 2010 / 3:20 pm

    Here is a reply from Dr. Robinson to James Snapp’s questions above:

    As noted in the interview, I choose not to interact or get into extended discussions on this or other blogs. Extended questions require lengthy answers and become in and of themselves a request for a new and separate “interview.” With a new semester beginning along with meetings and preparation, time simply is not available. Mr Snapp’s questions (which seem to embody more than three issues) involve an extended foray into underlying theory and praxis, which simply cannot be accomplished in this venue.

    I offer some very brief replies, which I hope will be adequate within the current interview framework.

    1) “You have proposed in “The Case for Byzantine Priority” (in point #4 in the discussion of external evidence) that the various Byzantine subtypes essentially boil down to their several archetypes.”

    A single overarching Byzantine archetype remains the “backbone” or source of the various Byzantine subtypes. That archetype alone is the goal for recognition under our theory.

    2) “This seems to implicitly preclude the concept of “normal” transmission.”

    Not at all. “Normal” transmission fully assumes deviation into various sub-types that remain under the aegis of a particular texttype; this without nullifying the archetypal “backbone.”

    3) “It seems to me that you advocate an approach in which if a reading appears in the majority of those new centers of growth, it should be considered original”

    If by this you basically mean determining a “consensus reading” among the manuscripts comprising the Byzantine Textform, then yes. But consensus applies only when the manuscripts supporting the Byzantine Textform are strongly pointed in one particular direction (e.g., at least a 70%-30% division; anything less involves far more effort and additional factors beyond a mere poll of the subtypes or tallying of the manuscripts).

    4) “So, Question #1 is, why not add the early versions into the equation, so that we compare Witness-groups, instead of just MS-groups?”

    For the same reason cited in the interview when I asked why the Latin Vulgate might not be considered sufficient: ad fontes! The Byzantine Greek text should be established from Greek manuscripts. Given the wealth of Byzantine Greek manuscript material available, one should not need to determine the Byzantine Greek archetype from confessedly secondary witnesses, whether versional or patristic (this was Burgon’s position, if one reads him carefully: the versional and patristic testimony is valuable as supporting confirmatory evidence, but not as determining evidence where the Byzantine Greek manuscripts are mostly united).

    Even if the purportedly “Byzantine” versions such as the Gothic or the Peshitta were to be included in the tally, numerous places exist where those versions simply do not agree with the consensus of Greek Byzantine manuscripts. This may be due to cross-contamination with other texttype traditions, simple error on the part of versional scribes or translators, or other factors. Given that each version has its own history of transmission, the particular archetype of a given version has no necessary connection with what might exist among the Byzantine Greek manuscript consensus. As for “the Byzantine Text always wins the election” — well, of course, assuming one’s goal is the reconstruction of the Byzantine Greek archetype. The same would apply were one attempting to reconstruct the Alexandrian or Western archetypes: one does not look for non-Alexandrian or non-Western readings in such a task, but only those readings that pertain to the archetype in question; readings extraneous to that task necessarily are jettisoned.

    5) “And Question #2 is, would you be willing, at points where the Byzantine reading appears to be a non-majority reading among early Witness-groups (as opposed to exclusively Greek MS-groups), to seek the original text at those points by comparing the variants and evaluating them via text-critical canons (which is more difficult, which looks like it elicited the others, etc.)?”

    If I translate this correctly, you seem to suggest that wherever the Byzantine consensus reading is not supported by the versional and/or patristic evidence, one should follow the versional and patristic consensus, correct? Again, I would not concur, since I am not a “Byzantine eclectic” who merely picks and chooses from varying textual traditions — not even within the Byzantine itself. My goal is to recognize the readings that are transmissionally representative of the primary Byzantine archetype, and nothing more. I consider the establishment of the Byzantine archetype necessarily to be determined from the wealth found within the Greek Byzantine manuscript tradition and not to be muddied or confused by material from non-Byzantine sources (again, following Burgon’s principle on this matter). On the other hand, where the Byzantine manuscripts themselves are seriously divided, we have noted that other factors (internal and transmissional) come into play, but not to the extent that non-Byzantine witnesses become the ultimate determiners of the Byzantine Textform.

    6) “Question #3: How many readings in NA-27 do you think are not representative of the original text?”

    Our 2005 edition lists as footnotes all differences between the Byzantine Textform and the NA/UBS text. How many differences are there? I haven’t counted, but probably somewhere over 8000. Many of these are mere orthographical differences, which should be excluded from the count, since such are not really “variants.” Whatever remains after orthography is excluded (perhaps some 5000-6000 differences, not all translatable) would then be the readings where I would say NA/UBS does not represent the original text; this of course assuming the Byzantine to be original within the framework of our theory.

  7. Nazaroo August 11, 2010 / 9:46 pm

    Hi all: Dr. Robinson mentioned Whitney, but it doesn’t seem to be available online at the moment, even though it was apparently scanned by a university somewhere in 2000 something. Anyone know if and where an online digital copy may be had?
    I have located a review of the book, and typed it in here:

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    Whitney, 1892. S.W. Whitney, The Revisers’ Greek Text: A Critical Examination of Certain Readings, Textual and Marginal, in the Original Greek of the New Testament Adopted by the Late Anglo-American Revisers. Boston: Silver, Burdett & Company, 1892. Vol. I pp.361, Vol.II.pp.350

    “There is reason for the dissatisfaction which is felt by the author, and which is expressed with some vigor, concerning the Greek text which was the basis of translation of the Revision of 1881. That text was “settled” by vote of the Revising Company, after listening to the opinions of scholars, and conferring among themselves. The scholars were Drs. Scrivener and Hort. The advance sheets of the Westcott/Hort text were in the hands of the Revisers.

    The principle which governed the making of this Text was, that the readings of the oldest extant Greek MSS (namely the Vatican and Sinaitic Codices) are to be preferred to all other documents. Exception is taken to the method employed and the principle adopted. The introductions discuss both method and principle at length, and justify Mr. Whitney in his criticism of the Reviser’s Greek Text.

    He compares seriatum the verses of the Textus Receptus with those of the Reviser’s Text, endeavoring to show the weakness of the latter. It is not attempted to readt all of the variations between them, but those which are most significant and important. The authorities in each case are cited, and the reading to be preferred is discussed.

    The volumes go through the NT books in order, and at the close is a general index, and also an index of passages referred to.

    The work is designed for popular use, the English almost alwasy accompanying the Greek. It is doubtless true, as the author states, that textual criticism of the NT has not yet achieved final results – that the best text is still to be made, and that all who contribute to the working out of that best text are worthily engaged. His volumes are published to this end, and they will receive the careful attention they merit.

    – Book Notices: The Old Testament and New Testament Student
    Ed. William Rainey Harper
    vol. 16, Sept/Oct 1892 Nos. 3-4 (p. 178)

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    Bible-Researcher.com also gives a brief mention:

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    “This two-volume work is a very careful and thorough discussion of many readings adopted by the committee of the English Revised Version of 1881 which diverge from the traditional Received Text. The author (an American Baptist) usually argues against the new readings and for the Received Text’s reading, but unlike many who have undertaken to defend the Received Text, he presents cool-headed arguments. The work contains much information in English on various readings of the manuscripts, and discusses the thinking of textual critics. The first volume has a concise introduction to textual criticism.”

    http://www.Bible-Researcher.com/bib-w.html, entry: Whitney, S.W.

    peace
    Nazaroo

    • Bob Hayton August 11, 2010 / 9:48 pm

      I found volume 2 at Google Books: here.

    • Bob Hayton August 12, 2010 / 12:23 am

      Dr. Robinson pointed me to archive.org for this. Here are the links to both volumes.

      Vol. 1

      Vol. 2

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